speaker-0 (00:07)
Hey everyone. and welcome to One More One on One. I am your host, NaKisha Stephens listen, not a podcaster. This is our first.

speaker-0 (00:20)
foray into podcasting, but got some time on my hands along with many, many people currently in the workforce. and you know, in the midst of job hunting and updating resumes and mock interviews and all this good stuff, it kind of occurred to me, I had a thought

speaker-0 (00:39)
that it's it's very hard to illustrate why someone should hire us. I you know I I feel like I bring quite a bit to the table. I know a lot of the people that you'll see featured on this podcast bring a lot to the table and they're getting looked over. They're getting caught in the shuffle they're getting you know

speaker-0 (00:59)
mixed in with with all the AI and and and all this stuff. so it dawned on me that why not create a podcast that's not just tips and tricks for how to update your resume and how to, do a better interview, but kind of like a live interview. And then hopefully, recruiters can see this. I wanted to create one more one-on-one.

speaker-0 (01:20)
around the simple belief that behind every open to work banner that you see that green banner that you see on LinkedIn that says open to work, there's a real person and a real story worth hearing. people are talented, they're navigating career transitions, new opportunities, and

speaker-0 (01:43)
There's a lot that goes into that and people are more than a job title, more than a resume, more than just a LinkedIn headline. And so really this platform was created to help make those stories a little bit more visible. recruiters will see it or people are see it on the timeline and you know, maybe network and connect and and help people find some of those opportunities because we could all use one more one on one.

speaker-0 (02:08)
because that one conversation can change everything. So today I am very, very excited to introduce to you someone that I believe is absolutely worth getting to know, worth hearing their story. it's someone I've had the pleasure of working with

speaker-0 (02:28)
And I I just I love her so much. I'm so honored that she's doing my first my first episode. and so I am joined by Ms Sheila Bryant. So welcome to the podcast. and usually I this this is where I would dive in and and and let you kind of say a little bit about yourself. But but before I do that, I wanna share a a really funny story about how we met because I think it just

speaker-0 (02:55)
speaks to just how amazing you are to work with and just the type of energy and the type of value that you bring to an organization. because I I remember I I I didn't want to meet for about six months. and so I kept pushing off a meeting. I I we we were both at a company and I was newer to the to the company and

speaker-0 (03:17)
I have a learning and development background and I wasn't in a learning and development role, but there was there was our our knowledge base that we were using. And I was curious, like, who designed the knowledge base? There's some really cool things in here, but I also have some questions. I was just wanting to, you know, understand a little bit more about how it worked. and my boss at the time kept saying, you got to meet with the with the lady who, you know, made it and created it. And and I'm awkward at times, so I was kind of like

speaker-0 (03:42)
I don't know if I want to meet with someone initially and have all these questions and then maybe, you know, they're like, whoa, who are you? Why are you like questioning, all the the this hard work and effort that I put in and so I kept putting it off, kept putting it off, kept putting it on. And and my boss would always say, Hey, did you meet with with the Sheila yet? And I'm like, no, you know, kind of busy getting the hang of stuff. And and so finally I reached out to you, put I think it was like a 30 minute meeting on the calendar. And

speaker-0 (04:10)
As soon as we got on the call and and just you know kind of did the introductions and then I go into, you know, yeah, I had some questions, you know, this this was cool, but how did how did you create this? And you know, we started really talking about just all things learning and development and knowledge management. And it was so funny because almost immediately you were like, you know what you're talking about. There are so many times you can meet with me.

speaker-0 (04:36)
And it I'm might as well be speaking a different language, but like, okay, let's go. And we had such a candid, just enjoyable. It ended up going from a 30-minute conversation to I think we stayed on that call for about two or three hours. and immediately just connected and it was so enjoyable. I love getting to know

speaker-0 (04:58)
just how you really worked and how you really put things together. And and I was inspired. I think by the end of that call, you were inspired. And it ended up being one of my probably favorite partnerships that I've had ever in a working capacity. And we ended up eventually working on a project together with that knowledge base. And it ended up being

speaker-0 (05:20)
massively, you know, successful and and fun, which was, you know, unexpected and I just loved everything about it. And so I'm so glad that I I did connect with someone on that level. And so

speaker-0 (05:33)
I'll stop talking. introduce yourself, Sheila. tell us a little bit about yourself and what is bringing you to the podcast today. Where are you at currently in your in your career transition?

speaker-1 (05:46)
I am currently figuring it out. the I forget the name of the cartoon, but I I guess called the Brave New World. And I feel like that's what that's what we're all entering now, this new brave world. And I just kind of want to second you on on our our how we met and everything. And I was so happy that you reached out. I love

speaker-1 (06:08)
an opportunity to talk about instructional design and technology and all of those things. And so it it it kind of helps me to get an understanding where you're at. I love people's feedback. You know what I'm saying? I love to think about that feedback and incorporate it into, whether it's a course or a training or just to have that conversation to just get a better feel for

speaker-1 (06:32)
where you're at, where I'm at, and how we can come together. So I know there are a lot of titles out there, you know, one is instructional designer. I prefer learning systems architect and strategist. people sometimes say learning professional, but I kind of feel like I do more than just develop training. I started out in medical and academic libraries and

speaker-1 (06:56)
Because of those types of libraries, technology came in, so there's hardware and software. But I moved into instructional design and found that, you know, and as you can attest to, we were just solving more problems than what was on on the table.

speaker-1 (07:15)
You have to figure out what's not working, how how we can bring people together and then create a structure and help those people that would benefit from our project move forward, which also helps the company move forward, which is, you know, the bottom line for every day. It keeps them in business.

speaker-0 (07:35)
Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I agree. I think I think we were in a very unique environment where we we both kind of have a more structured it we're we're very big on like governance and and you know kinda a very I I don't wanna say old school, but it's but it it is less startup type of way of approaching, you know, learning. And so that was something that we really resonated with because that we were both

speaker-0 (08:01)
faced with how do we do this when there when no structure exists. When no when they're when we're coming up with, you know, governance and not even just coming up with it, but really trying to persuade stakeholders to understand the importance of it. And and and so that that was always interesting. but, you know, I I agree. I I think, some of those projects were so just cool and and it was great to to partner on them with someone that like

speaker-0 (08:26)
it's very hard sometimes in the workplace to to be with folks where you feel like they get it. Like they they get it. They they like we we're we're we're aligning, we're meshing, we're like rocking and rolling and

speaker-1 (08:37)
Light bulb comes on.

speaker-0 (08:39)
Yeah. And and you are absolutely one of those people for me. So I've had the pleasure of of getting to know you over these past couple of years, but you know, let's let's let the the the folks know you. So today we're actually going to

speaker-0 (08:52)
go a little bit beyond the resume and and I do want to help people see the person behind the profile. And so, one of the things that gets lost during a job search is is the person behind the resume because you're you're so focused on especially like you know in in the case of

speaker-0 (09:14)
layoffs or in the case of like unexpected, career transitions, then you're you're almost in a in a different type of timetable. And so it it really becomes less about finding work that might be, you know, meaningful or just something that you're passionate about to to I need to find work.

speaker-0 (09:37)
And so, you know, it's it's a little bit harder to then kind of align that with with the person behind the profile, right? And and that may not necessarily be your situation, but I know that's a lot of the situation for a lot of people that's looking today for for work. And so, one of the things that I always am curious about is

speaker-0 (09:57)
Who are you outside of your job title? Outside of, learning systems strategists and and architect. Who are you? What's something that that motivates you?

speaker-1 (10:09)
it's it's that's a really great question because that's something I've actually been thinking about. I've been an instructional designer and doing that type of work for so long that I've kind of felt that I've melded myself to that. So I'm just like, you know, a walking, talking instructional designer all the time. But outside of my job title, I am curious. I mean, I study. I study instructional design today. I read,

speaker-1 (10:35)
I ask a ridiculous number of questions and I can personally verify that last one that you know my questions could probably get on your nerves. But it helps me to get because I feel like as a friend, even as an instructional designer, my goal is not always to give you my vision for how you want to move forward or what you want to do. It is to

speaker-1 (11:01)
help you to come alongside of you. And so I want a clearer understanding of who I'm talking to as a friend, as an instructional designer, as an aunt, you know, as a cousin, as a sister, and so on and so forth. So faith is central to my life. I care deeply about people. And I'm also a person that who is constantly trying to connect. I want to, be your shadow if I can use

speaker-1 (11:28)
that terminology to to come alongside of you and you know, like, okay, this is what she has in her head or this is what he has in his head. And I'm trying to get that picture because I want to I just that's how I think of support. It's not me taking over. It's me building you up. It's me supporting you. It's me coming alongside of you.

speaker-0 (11:52)
Yeah. And as someone who's been on the receiving end of some of those questions, I love it. I think that's such a brilliant way to connect with people. Cause a lot of times people like to talk about themselves, but you you rarely have someone that that shows like a genuine interest in getting to know you. And I saw something recently that said to be interesting, you have to be interesting.

speaker-1 (12:16)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (12:17)
I think that's a

speaker-0 (12:18)
perfect way to describe you if you're so interested in your surroundings and what other people's thoughts are and how to really understand maybe what someone else is going through and then it it you because you're just I think brilliant across the board you're then able to add to the conversation I I I I'll never forget I you know I too am very

speaker-0 (12:44)
now i i'm i'm very faith based and and that's something that's been a bit of a journey that i've been going through and so i remember at my birthday dinner this year we were talking and and we got on the subject of something and you you bust out with some Hebrew and and all of us were like whoa where did that come from but it it it was so

speaker-0 (13:07)
Cool. And it's like, wow, like that. And and again you kind of were speaking to, yeah, you know, I've studied and did this is something that was been really meaningful and interesting to me. And immediately it it kind of made me go home and like research like the the scripture that you had said. And then so it just I love that not only are you you interested, but you're it makes you very interesting.

speaker-0 (13:29)
I definitely say that's who you are behind your profile.

speaker-1 (13:32)
Appreciate you saying that. That's very kind and that's very thoughtful. But I mean thinking about it, you know, the disciples and all the people that were in leadership, they were trying to solve problems for people. They weren't trying to come from it from their understanding. They had been given wisdom and they wanted to share that with them. I think it says

speaker-1 (13:55)
Bear you one another's burden, but you have to bear your own load. So that coming alongside of people is just like a thing that to me just runs through everything. And, you know, Paul being the great teacher that he was, I kind of consider him like the first instructional designer. He's teaching people from these letters that he's writing. And he said, you know, I'm hoping to be bold when I come in front of you with these things like this.

speaker-1 (14:21)
But it's for your own good, it's for your own edification.

speaker-0 (14:25)
I love that. I love that. Paul as the first instructional design. So that kind of leads me into so that really guides your work. and and just having that faith based foundation. I can see that as being one of the things that guides your work and guides your thought processes and you bring a lot of that into

speaker-0 (14:47)
your approach. Tell me a little bit more about that.

speaker-1 (14:50)
So my values are, integrity, competence, helping people to become confident in areas that they are not strong in, service and stewardship, you know, and that's along with that curiosity, but I also believe in accountability. if something isn't working, I don't believe in pretending that it is.

speaker-1 (15:10)
And that is not ever going to be an option for me. what I've had to realize is that, when you have these values and I've had to examine them, it's like if I tell you something that's not true, when you find out that I've lied, you're not gonna trust me. So as an instructional designer

speaker-1 (15:31)
that transparency and that accountability is is is just necessary because the overall goal is to always, you know, bring truth to the table because the truth brings trust. The trust continues to support and uplift and hold the relationship

speaker-1 (15:49)
You want to know that when you're talking to someone that they are not conniving or you know doing anything behind your back that would lead you down a road that you don't want to go.

speaker-1 (16:02)
You know, one of the things that I do like about instructional design that I've incorporated into my life outside of that is as long as you've got options, you're all you're okay. You're you everything is gonna be fine because you've always got options.

speaker-0 (16:18)
Yeah. Yeah. And and I love that you that you called out trust because essentially in instructional design, without trust, you don't have anything because you're a lot of times you are partnering with other departments or you're partnering with other teams and you're essentially kind of executing their vision versus, you know, I I know some people look at

speaker-0 (16:40)
Instructional design is like, we're note takers and we just do what we're being told. But it when you have a really good instructional design or a learning partner, it's actually quite opposite. It it's a lot of what you said. You know, I I I recall I've seen you in meetings where you are very careful to, you know, honor maybe a request, but also kind of disclose

speaker-0 (17:06)
You know, that may not necessarily be the best direction. This this may fit better here. And you're very cognizant of, that is something that in your role you should do. It's not just, yeah, let me let me do whatever they're saying we we can do because you're the expert, right? So you may know, hmm, we we might want to try it a different way. And and I've seen you be able to do that successfully and and get people to understand,

speaker-0 (17:32)
more of of a better approach or something that's gonna be less time consuming eventually or, you know, if you know, if we do it this way, this is gonna cost more down the line. Like I you are very, very thoughtful in in those conversations and those aren't always easy conversations for the state.

speaker-1 (17:53)
Easy conversations, especially, you know, when I was in academia, you have a faculty member, they come with the subject matter experts and they're getting ready to do something, and that's their baby, that they're holding. You know what I'm saying? And they've got the baby in the arms and they're growing and developing it and they're, feeding it and take care of it. And you just can't crush people. You have to

speaker-1 (18:19)
vetted out and that's what I would say is is one of the things that I've I've had to do and learn to do and I've hopefully I've gotten really good at is figuring things out. 'cause these situations they can look, on the surface like, this is easy, just tell the person no, but it's more complicated than that. People have invested their time, they've invested their thought processes, their education and

speaker-1 (18:43)
all of themselves into these projects. And so that's where, doing the research, asking questions, making that connection, being honest and transparent, it it helps you to move forward. And then you realize, I can really talk to Sheila about anything. You know, she's not just gonna, take the sledgehammer or use a hammer to deal with anything.

speaker-1 (19:05)
And that's the other thing about, instructional design. You do have all these tools. We don't have to just use the one, but you have all these tools and sometimes when you don't use them, you have to go back and say, well, you know what? I haven't looked at this tool recently or I haven't thought about this. How you know, how can we use this in this situation, or some of that tool in this situation? These frameworks have been around for like since the nineteen hundreds and they're great. And

speaker-1 (19:32)
I think because of my personality, my curiosity, the need to have all these questions answered, they come together well for me. And so I can have a conversation with you just like we're having now. Just like we had the first time we met. Because I was just like, I want to hear what you have to say. And anytime that you're dealing with an instructional designer that does not want any feedback, you already have a large problem.

speaker-0 (19:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I and you know, we're both huge advocates of AI. Like we we we we I think we were both on the AI wave before there was a AI wave. But even with that, like I that's the other thing that I think we both had many, many conversations about. A AI is

speaker-0 (20:16)
It's blessing and a curse. Because you know, now everybody's coming in, like, I can design and I can you know do this. And and there still really is a lot of what you're talking about is that human factor. You know, how how do you how do you maybe leverage the tools? Yes, but still use that human factor in order to really, build things that are impactful, build things that are sustainable and and and build things that people

speaker-0 (20:42)
actually use. I think that's it too. Like, you know, we we we both have formal and also informal form background when it comes to to instructional design. And and we we kind of joke often of like, you know, it's a little different in theory versus practice. And so again, you speak into being flexible and

speaker-0 (21:05)
It's more art than science. And and that's that's the thing people don't want to say out loud. It

speaker-1 (21:10)
Yeah, yeah.

speaker-0 (21:11)
it really is more art than science.

speaker-1 (21:14)
Yeah, I I love Addy. I love Gagne's nine events of instruction. I love the different types, you know, when when I'd gone to Purdue University, it took me two years to pick out a university to attend. I was just like, Okay, what are we gonna do next? and you know, as I'm picking out these universities, I'm asking for syllabi and everything, and I'm like

speaker-1 (21:36)
thoroughly investigating, this program and how it's going to benefit me. And I they were magnificent at the way that they created the courses and and that self-discovery and all the hard work that they made me do.

speaker-1 (21:53)
at the time that I was not appreciative of. Yeah. you know, that that I can that I can see now and the things that I've been able to think through and the projects that I've been able to work with. And I am a h you know a believer in, higher education and continuing education and lifelong learning. And I think that's one of the ways that we connected also too, because you have to have a love

speaker-1 (22:22)
And this is why I talked about I have I I love people. You have to have a love for other people and wanting them to be, if not as good as you, much better than you. You know, I would never hope anybody would just achieve what I've achieved. I would hope that they would go on to be much better because I feel like that's what I've gotten in my lifetime from people is is that support. I remember when I was in

speaker-1 (22:46)
I was I guess I must have been in eighth grade. Math was not my thing. My teacher was not having it. She was upset. And I didn't know why she was upset because I'm the one that's failing the class. But I ended up getting high school, taking these remedial courses. And I remember Mr. Choicey. He just walks over to me, just like he knew me. Sheila, what are you doing in the remedial math class? I said, Well, Mr. Choice, I can't do math.

speaker-1 (23:10)
I said, didn't you see the notes from my eighth grade teacher? Did you not get that memo? And he says, Nah, we're gonna get you out of here. And I'm like, where am I going? I need to stay here. And you know, this man was so wonderful. And I went not only did they do algebra, but the

speaker-1 (23:28)
calculus and statistics. If you put in the time and you have that support, anybody can do it. And it's it's been very heartbreaking for me to see some of the courses that I have seen. because it's just like

speaker-1 (23:43)
I wouldn't I wouldn't want someone to have less than what I have. Yeah. You know what I mean? If if if I'm going to give you something, it's not something I'm just gonna throw this away. well, you what? I'll give this. No, what I what I'm gonna give you has some value and some meaning. Just think about the people that created CPR, the re you know, refrigeration, the stop light, air conditioning, open heart surgery.

speaker-1 (24:11)
Because they did have that level of excellence, we have better qualities of life now. And so as I'm developing all my relationships, you know, with family, friends, that's the same thing I give to people when I'm working. I do want you to succeed. I do want you to grow and develop and overcome whatever

speaker-1 (24:31)
challenges you've encounter. So that's where I think instructional design back to that human side that you mentioned, it's about really wanting that person to have so much success in their lives. And I remember what Mr Troy said he did not have to do that. He did not have to, I mean

speaker-1 (24:52)
My eighth grade teacher, you know, that relationship was already ruined, but it you know, he could have just said, you know, she'll be all right. But he didn't. He's he stopped and he saw something in me that I didn't even see in myself. And I think that's what instructional design is about, is like, how can I help this person get to the next level? But I will say that's the way I am in my personal life, you know, with my friends and my family.

speaker-1 (25:20)
How can I help you get to that next level? You know? So and again, I think that's where we connect, wanting to see people do better. I've, you know, don't really know everybody on your team from the organization that we were working with, but I know that you wanted them to excel. I know that you were interested in helping them

speaker-0 (25:40)
Yeah. Shout shout out to my old team. If y'all watching, yes, we we we we did. I think we connected on on that piece of it. And again, you know, I think when people think about instructional design, a lot of times, because most often you don't manage the learners. And so that part a lot of times unfortunately is missing if you most people get so caught up in just the

speaker-0 (26:07)
the work that they forget. A person actually has to view this and take away from it and put it into practice. And so I agree. I think one of the things that I I truly feel like has made you not only just unique in your approach, but really, really successful when you create content is you keep the the user at the forefront. Like you you meet

speaker-0 (26:31)
You know, we we worked in a corporate setting. So you you you met with the agents that yeah, were taking the calls. You understood what their pain points were. You you directly, talked to the people that were going to be learning. you know, you didn't always just use the designated SME or subject matter expert, right? 'Cause a lot of times, unfortunately, that person may not be the best person either. That's

speaker-0 (26:57)
That could be somebody who, you know, was just designated to to be the subject matter expert. But I know there were often times where you would actually reach out to the learners or the users. And I know you had set up at one point where they could give you direct feedback. And even from that direct feedback, then you would really focus on, okay, these these are the problems. Hmm. I I wouldn't have

speaker-0 (27:18)
These aren't things that I would have thought, were confusing or were non-existent and and that really helped you and guided you in terms of priority and how to make the product better. and that is lost. I think that's one of the things that that tends to get lost in.

speaker-0 (27:34)
learning and development is a lot of times people focus on the learning part and creating this perfect training and it's gotta look a certain way and it's gotta have all these bells and whistles, but does it actually develop people? Does it actually do what it's intended to do? I think that's something that I've admired because I I I know you put a lot of thought into I don't want to just make something, you know, pretty. I want it to be

speaker-0 (27:58)
Aesthetically where it looks good, but also functional. Like can people actually do their job from this training or from this, you know, article? Because you you you you handled all of the knowledge management pieces. And so I I love that about you. And I I I do think that rings true in terms of just how you operate. That's just a natural part of how you

speaker-0 (28:20)
engage with people, how you connect with people, it's like you really, really do want them to be successful. If they're gonna do it, then it's like, well let's let's do it. So then you you benefit from it, right? Right. and I love that. I love that that was how you always kind of approached it 'cause not everybody does. again, this is a podcast, we can be honest. Not

speaker-1 (28:39)
Right, exactly. Right. You can you you you've got kind of two choices. You can be successful or you n you or you or you can fail. Mm-hmm. Well, if we have the option to be successful, why not be successful?

speaker-0 (28:51)
Right. And and truly not just based on, made up numbers or we gotta learning out, because that's that some people measure successes. Well, did y'all get it created? Right. Yeah, we yeah, we get created, right? But but you know, after that, like was it did people use it, did people like it, did people, get better from it? So I like that you always thought in that direction versus like, yeah, let's just bang out all this content.

speaker-1 (29:16)
That's the you know, and I keep a I keep a binder of the process and of the tools that I use because it just got easier than the have the you know, having to go back through all the books. but you know, I've always had to s slow down and stop and say, Does this need to be a training? You know what I'm saying? Because I've I've I've seen where we've taken the coaching and the mentoring, we want to put it in storyline, we wanna put it in rise.

speaker-1 (29:45)
But that's a conversation. That's an opportunity to connect with the people that you are working with and starting a rapport and being able to talk to them and learning how they move and groove throughout the day. One of the things because I didn't really know my team's background. I didn't really know

speaker-1 (30:09)
what they had done before where where they had come from, you know. And so I had always wanted the team that I had been working with to create a course together. And it could have been something as as silly as how do you blow up a balloon. It wasn't really, you know, the topic. It was about how do you see this project? You know, what can I learn about my coworkers style of instructional design or just their graphic design or their thought

speaker-1 (30:38)
process. You know, how what can I learn about how they would approach, these different things that we came up against. instructional design is kind of like going to the doctor and then being diagnosed.

speaker-1 (30:50)
And say, okay, we're gonna follow this treatment plan. They are steps that they do. You know, the doc you just never walk into the doctor's office and he gives you something and then tells you to leave. He needs to do some kind of assessment. And I see instructional design the same way. even if you want to say the people are the patient, and this process that we want to give them to help them to get better is the medical plan. so it is about

speaker-1 (31:15)
being able to take them from where they're at in that situation to a better situation. And I just think that that's that's just so important. and it shows that you're interested in them beyond just the performance. You understand that there's more to them than them just, as you say, just doing the job.

speaker-0 (31:35)
Yeah. And and I I I love that.

speaker-0 (31:38)
And so kind of switching gears just a little bit because we we're we're kind of talking about impact. And so I I don't want people to miss some things that you've actually accomplished. so I I'm curious out of out of all the industries, out of all the the many, many projects that I'm sure you've been a part of, like what would be one of your your things that you're most

speaker-0 (32:02)
proud of in terms of accomplishing.

speaker-1 (32:05)
Gosh, I did kind of think about that a little bit, you know what I mean? and there were so many different not not that you know I'm so spectacular that anything in my life is just

speaker-0 (32:17)
It falls out.

speaker-0 (32:20)
I love it. Come on. Like I

speaker-1 (32:23)
You know, tell me.

speaker-0 (32:25)
yeah, I know that's right.

speaker-1 (32:26)
The goat of instructional demand.

speaker-0 (32:29)
There we go.

speaker-1 (32:31)
I I I I kinda have a couple of things. so I guess I should kind of start off here. I used to work for an organization called IGS Energy. I was an instructional designer there for six years. Due to a reorganization, my role was eliminated. Mm-hmm. So

speaker-1 (32:50)
When I think about IGS, I think I am most proud of the work that we were doing with SharePoint.

speaker-0 (32:58)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (32:59)
that SharePoint project was it was a labyrinth. It had so many turns, it had so many directions. It was like a 3D, you know, labyrinth, you know, w with a with a

speaker-1 (33:15)
multi-lever level 3d chess set built in and you know we were we were really working a lot of different angles there I I mean the research that went into it creating you know the governance and talking about the different points that needed to be strengthened as we were working together thinking about outcomes who needed to be involved in

speaker-1 (33:43)
what was going to be the best direction to move in. It had a lot of layers and a lot of just twists and turns that I could not imagine. And just taking information that was so complex and turning it into those workflows. not having anything written down. There was nothing that was

speaker-1 (34:06)
That we had to work from there were no source.

speaker-0 (34:08)
We we we call it well urban legend. If we're working from like urban legend content.

speaker-1 (34:14)
It was just like, you know, creating structure where there was all this ambiguity, you know, and and and and there was the information side of this, the technology, the workflows, the knowledge management, the learning programs part of it. and what I really thought was essential was really connecting the customer service agents.

speaker-1 (34:39)
toward the information again, instead of having just this one situation come up and then there'd be 1,500 approaches, getting that down to one truth, attacking that tribal knowledge, and saying, okay, some of this is not true. Some of this is.

speaker-0 (34:56)
Well

speaker-1 (34:57)
You know, how can we g get to that truth?

speaker-1 (34:59)
And so I thought it was very fascinating working with all those people, working across cross-functional teams and collaboration and having to call people up and see what they know or didn't know and you've got all these points and then trying to figure out how they are interconnected. So it was challenging and I felt that it was something, you know, problem solving. You know what I'm saying?

speaker-1 (35:26)
At the end of the day, this was going to be beneficial. And then I remember the day we were in a meeting and one of the senior managers saw what we had created and how his face was just like whoa.

speaker-0 (35:41)
What in in in a unexpected way, I think they didn't realize what that tool could actually do until you know we really got together and kind of started make making it do what it does.

speaker-1 (35:57)
Right.

speaker-1 (35:58)
And that was the the the the the other piece that I had enjoyed was, working with you and several other people. And I always knew we could be better together. And it that was the moment it was like, boom. Yes, we are better together. That is the proof. You know, I know it's not measurable. I know it's not like a real objective or anything like that. Like it's not written out, but boom, there's the proof. You know, we you know, we we've done it.

speaker-1 (36:26)
And that it was just a moment, we weren't in the meeting all day long, but that really, really stuck with me. And I know when I was at the University of Oklahoma, I kinda had that same situation. we were moving from D two L to Canvas and so there was a lot of planning around that because at the University of Oklahoma in my particular department, we ran about

speaker-1 (36:50)
300 courses. So, you know, every spring, every summer, every fall, the courses would change. And so there was review cycles and there was, coming up with a different layout. And most people that have canvas know that it's it's called coding. you got your CSS, your HTML, and so on, so forth like that. There's certain, there's a little WYSIWYG in there where can add images and stuff like that for some simple stuff. But if you're gonna really

speaker-1 (37:17)
you know, take it to the next level. The coding is it. And so just what courses do we have? When are they offered? and not only when are they offered, but how much of a course? Is it a four week, six week, eight weeks, sixteen weeks? What's the rotation for the university? based on what academic program is, what is the offering schedule?

speaker-1 (37:39)
What does this course look like going from D2L into Canvas? How is it going to display what we have? What's going to be the things that we need to do to bring it up to par? And then having to write out a plan for each of those types of courses for that particular program and then being able to get it set up. Because a lot of times, with instructional design or I guess with working in general, people think there's like a button you push and

speaker-1 (38:06)
The Office Depot commercial where he hit the red

speaker-0 (38:09)
Eevee,

speaker-0 (38:09)
the easy button, there's no easy button.

speaker-1 (38:11)
And there's no easy but you

speaker-1 (38:12)
know, you and I are the easy buttons.

speaker-0 (38:15)
That that's it. That's it exactly.

speaker-1 (38:18)
Right. So, you know, there's their button doesn't exist. So there is planning and execution behind that. that's the other thing that I would say that because it's part of it. And you know, we talked about this earlier, just being able to talk to people from a standpoint of saying

speaker-1 (38:37)
This is what's going to need to go into this, or or going back and say, you know what? I've mapped out the first 10 steps. I realize between four and five, there needs to be this extra step. We're gonna have to back it up. But being honest and telling people what is actually needed in order to make the success. And then the other part of that is coming with that consultant attitude. I am going to tell you.

speaker-1 (39:04)
I'm gonna give you the data. I'm gonna let you know historically what has happened and I'm gonna let you do what you're supposed to do, make this decision,

speaker-1 (39:13)
I remember at Langston University I created a computer lab. They didn't have one.

speaker-1 (39:20)
So it's just like, okay, this is what we need to set this computer lab up. Can I get something? They gave me what they could could give me. It wasn't a large one, maybe about thirty seats, all Mac computers, you know, the integrated Wi Fi whiteboard.

speaker-1 (39:36)
as a librarian, I taught, you know, information literacy, how to recognize fake websites from real websites, what does real research look like, you know, your APA, your MLA and things of that nature. And then also to, you know, my faculty, whenever I work with them, I I what I liked about working with them is they had some really strong ideas.

speaker-0 (40:02)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (40:03)
Everything

speaker-1 (40:03)
there work out. But, you know, sometimes even when things don't work out, you get some new technology, you get a new process, you get a new understanding of something that you had not seen before. So yeah in all of the things that I've named, I you know, I think the the the greatest part has been really, just like you and I, it it was meeting someone else who got it, who was really to work, who was willing to be honest and transparent.

speaker-1 (40:31)
And, have those hard conversations. And and that's what really makes me proud is is is the group of people that I've met and I've been I've been able to work with.

speaker-0 (40:41)
I love that. I love that. And so what what so so kind of piggybacking off of that, I'm curious, what what is your superpower? I mean, you you've you've worked with, you know, it sounds like big corporations, smaller corporations, big budgets, small budgets. So, you know, to in order to be able to kind of navigate all of those different things, I mean, they're d clearly the skills are there. So what would you say is like your superpower?

speaker-0 (41:10)
when it comes to just how you work, how you are successful and how you engage.

speaker-1 (41:16)
You know

speaker-1 (41:17)
From the standpoint of my projects, I was I would always say communication and I have always said communication. Communication is everything. but I'm I'm a step back a little bit from that. I'm gonna do a little task analysis in my head, 'cause when I think about communication, I'm thinking about it being two way. But then, you know, just as we're talking, I would say listening.

speaker-1 (41:44)
We we we always used to say, got two ears, one mouth, you're supposed to do twice as much listening as you do with talking. It's it's got to be listening and listening 'cause some peop times people don't say it. Like they won't come straight out and say, I don't know whether to make this a course or not. Mm-hmm. They say, Well I have to create this course. And okay, you have to? You're saying the word have to.

speaker-1 (42:10)
Okay, well w what does have to look like? Why do you have to?

speaker-1 (42:15)
Yeah. Well, you know, and then just listen to okay, so then I would take you back. I say, okay, let's start from the beginning. Let's let's start from the beginning of instructional design. The first thing you do is you decide whether it's going to be a a course or not. And so you're telling me that you have to, and you laid out these things. And then I bring out Mager. And Major has this whole workflow that tells you how you decide if this needs to be a course or not. And the first thing it tells you is if it's not important.

speaker-1 (42:44)
You don't need to make it a

speaker-0 (42:45)
Doesn't

speaker-0 (42:45)
need to be a chord. Right.

speaker-1 (42:48)
So I'm listening and I'm saying, okay, these are some things that I would consider based on what I do. You take a couple of days and you think about our conversation, and I tell them, This is what I'm hearing you say.

speaker-1 (43:04)
I'm attaching it to an instructional design process. You tell me where you are at in that process. So I would say listening. And I think early on, and this may not be true for all instructional designers, it might just be me, but you just kind of jump to conclusions. You know, you got the framework. So let's just jump on the framework. But I recently did the CPTM certified professional and training management.

speaker-1 (43:29)
And we had this case study. And so, you know, we're all in the case study. We're just knocking it out. We're like, Yeah, we need this and we need that and we need this. And I remember when the speaker came in and she said, you know, let's start from here. She said, you know, she said, Well, how are these people feeling? They're

speaker-0 (43:46)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (43:47)
feeling like they need to get the work done. No, they are scared, they are freaking out,

speaker-1 (43:52)
They're thinking about failure. They're thinking about the bottom just dropping out. I mean and and and we've all have seen the graveyard of unfinished projects. yeah. yeah. That graveyard is alive and well and they don't want to go there. So I would say listening, not just to what it is that they need to do, but listening to the sound of their voice. You know, the breaks, the lulls.

speaker-1 (44:20)
the pauses. That's

speaker-0 (44:21)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (44:23)
telling you something too about where they're mentally at with this with this project and

speaker-1 (44:31)
listening to what they want to accomplish

speaker-0 (44:34)
Yeah. And that is that that's so critical. And it's one of those things that's almost like you would think is common, but it's really not. Like you said, a lot of times, especially in in a learning and development space, it it you do. You have your frameworks, you you may have, the data and all this stuff. So, you you kind of jump in and and may miss the obvious, which is

speaker-0 (44:58)
Does this even need to be a trainer? Like maybe it could be something else. And and again, I think that really speaks to your years of experience and also you truly being and having expertise versus just experience. Cause I I I've I've learned that over the years too, of like, a lot of people have experience, you know, because they've been in a role for so many years or they've been doing a thing for so many years.

speaker-0 (45:23)
they could have been doing it very badly though. And so there's a difference between experience and expertise. And I think what you're speaking on is you actually have expertise in the sense that you can can really understand and and know on a deep level where someone may be missing their own gaps, including stakeholders, including, you know, learners, especially learners, right? Because a lot of times you don't know what you don't know. So

speaker-0 (45:51)
I I I love that your superpower is listening because that is a very underrated and I think understated thing, especially in the workplace.

speaker-1 (46:02)
You know, one of the things that I admire about you that I noticed is that after people speak, you kind of take a pause, you sit with it a couple of seconds, and then you respond. I'm just like, okay, I'm doing it, but I don't look like I'm doing it. She looks like she's doing it. She's mastered it. She was like, okay. And then you just take that pause and you speak, and it's like,

speaker-1 (46:26)
I have so much up here. Sometimes it tends to just kinda rattle out, you know what I'm saying? It's like, okay, I need to give this person everything so that they don't, miss this and that. But I truly appreciate your how you come to the table. I'm gonna put it to that way.

speaker-0 (46:44)
Thank you. Thank you. That now that is something that is a skill that I have built because I I've been known to be very much like you, you know, mine's going a mile a minute. I can be very overwhelming sometimes, but it's more excitement and like you know, ready to dive in. But but sometimes it's like I I know to some people that excitement can be also just as like

speaker-0 (47:07)
Whoa, 'cause maybe other people don't feel like they're at that level of energy or excitement. So I don't know if I can, you know, really match that. And so yeah, that I appreciate that that comes through because it is something that I've worked.

speaker-1 (47:16)
No, you to

speaker-1 (47:19)
the table like a boss. I mean you really show up and I'm just like that is so cool. That's the best thing that I've seen. I said I was gonna get you a pinky ring since you could up like a

speaker-0 (47:31)
You know, I I wouldn't be opposed to it. Okay. But I know we're we're we're coming up on time here. This is just such a great first conversation. Not first for me and you, but just first for for the people. And I think we're we're we're gonna find that so many people resonate with a lot of what you have said because I throughout this conversation I kind of feel like a lot of what we're talking about are the things that people don't say out loud. You know, like it you always have to be very

speaker-0 (47:58)
just so and you can't really speak on like some of the challenges that really occur in the workplace. And yeah,

speaker-1 (48:05)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (48:06)
you know, but to me that's that's what's behind the banner. It's like we all have had setbacks in our careers, we all have been on projects that were hard. You know, not every project is perfect from start to finish, far from it. And so, I think those are the things that

speaker-0 (48:24)
are important to to speak on and important to say. And so, if I if I had to ask a a a more direct question for those that that may be interested in reaching out to you. I am curious for you, what

speaker-0 (48:39)
is your approach to how you measure success? You kind of said, you know, success looks very different and can and can be interpreted different ways. And so how do you normally measure the success of your projects, your teams, yourself in your role? Like what does that look like for you?

speaker-1 (48:58)
Yeah, I I actually like to use some for Patrick's four level. And that's very formal and I don't want people to think that I'm sitting there assessing them all the time. But,

speaker-1 (49:09)
for me the most important thing is are you willing to give me honest feedback on the work that I've done because if you never tell me the truth about where I'm failing, if you never tell me the truth about, well, you know, I like this, but it could have been, or this is something we were doing five years ago. I'd really like to do something new. If you can't be honest with me and just say those things

speaker-1 (49:32)
mm i it it's not gonna it's not gonna go well.

speaker-0 (49:34)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (49:36)
Yeah. Cause maybe they've given feedback to somebody else and it didn't go well. And again, this this is something that I can speak to personally from having, worked with you and us, not always agreeing

speaker-1 (49:48)
Green.

speaker-0 (49:48)
the same way, especially because we're both creative. one of the funny, funniest things that I think I've ever seen, where we were working on a project and

speaker-0 (49:58)
Because we we kind of had a groove of how we like to work, somehow this other person ended up on that call. And I don't think they were expecting to see us on a call in a very in what I would consider like a true, especially virtual. Like maybe this would have been different like back in the day, you would be in a room and you got a whiteboard and you know all these things, but now with it being virtual,

speaker-0 (50:20)
It's a little bit different. And and we were we were both working separately on the same thing. Like we were creating, you know, some visuals and and and updating SharePoint, the knowledge based article. And you would maybe change something and then I would change something. And it would be like, don't like that. don't love that. change that. Ooh, that's awesome. And we're just boom, boom, boom, boom. And

speaker-1 (50:43)
Right, exactly.

speaker-0 (50:44)
the other person on the call was just kind of sitting there like,

speaker-0 (50:48)
Horrified because they were like, wait, the fact that you guys are are are productively coming up with this really dope thing, and neither of you are getting upset. It's like, ooh, that's do you love do you really love that? Like and it it and and we kind of were like, we didn't realize that was weird. Like this this is just how we work, and it's because we've always had a very honest, you know.

speaker-0 (51:16)
I respect your judgment. I I respect your vision. I do trust in your capabilities. And so even if you see something differently, in that case, it's like, well, you know what? She let like, yeah, I let's rock with it because because I trust that this is still gonna come out really, really cool and really, really functional and and it's going to

speaker-0 (51:38)
you know, be something that can be useful and kind of like that manager that you that you said this person had this look of like I've never seen people work like that

speaker-1 (51:48)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (51:49)
and not like hate each other after.

speaker-1 (51:51)
Right. And and and the and the the the dismay or the happiness is what it's so visible. I mean, it you can see it when you're in the teams meeting. You can see the body react. You can see all those little micro, you know, maneuvers and things of this nature. And it's just like I remember when we first talked and you were telling me everything and I was like, Whoa, okay. I agree with that. No problem.

speaker-1 (52:18)
with that at all. I had been looking and wanting someone to disagree with. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, now that I think about it, yeah, okay, let's go. It it and that's how I think we got into a move and grew kind of pace and everything. And I I think it shocked a lot of people to see that you can walk that way.

speaker-1 (52:40)
the way we both work. It just kinda it just kinda

speaker-0 (52:44)
It clicked. It clicked. And and and yeah, I don't even think it was we just worked well together. I think we enjoyed working together. Yes. And so that's where even if we we you know had a discussion on something, it wasn't just immediate like, yeah, we both agree. Let's move on. Like sometimes we would we would talk it out. We would talk it through. We would, you know, pros, cons, like, mm-hmm. Like let's let's let's really like dig into it.

speaker-0 (53:10)
Even those, I I remember like those would be some of my favorite days or times at work just because it like you said, it was really cool to hear a different opinion, but it come from a place of you know, we can have a different opinion, but we both still know we want to create something cool and we want to create something better than what we have.

speaker-0 (53:32)
have and so that almost is it we've said it before it's that iron sharpens iron like it really motivated us as we were working and so it just it was always such a cool way to to work.

speaker-1 (53:44)
Yeah, yeah. That's that's that's that's the that's what I miss. I miss those days.

speaker-0 (53:49)
Yeah, yeah. And so what kind of role are you seeking? You say you missed those days. We're trying to find some some some more days ahead. So what what are you looking for? What is something that you that you will be open to that you're interested in? like I said, you've been in a few different industries. So is there anything in particular where you're you're hoping somebody sees this and is then reaches out?

speaker-1 (54:12)
That's a really good question.

speaker-1 (54:16)
Because going through being without work gives you a little time to think. you look over the good days, the bad days, and I am a problem solver.

speaker-1 (54:28)
you know, with this learning strategy, instructional design, program management, performance improvement. I'm I'm increasingly interested in broader organizational problems rather than just producing, courses. 'Cause that's the one thing I think that people think when you're instructionals that I just produce courses, I you know, this certificate, this training or things of this nature. But

speaker-1 (54:52)
One of the things I will say that, when we were working on SharePoint, we solved a lot of other problems too that came out of the project we were tasked with. And I know a couple of times I pulled a thread and then ten popped up over here, and it's just like, okay, having to think about where those other ten belong, are they part of what we're looking at now? So I would be looking at for a role where there is a truly

speaker-1 (55:19)
well thought out strategic plan. that that the organization is actually seeking to solve those problems.

speaker-1 (55:27)
So I'm looking for an organization that would allow me

speaker-1 (55:31)
to really help the people on the front lines, you know, to really help people that are doing the job.

speaker-1 (55:38)
I would want to work for an organization that would want my honest feedback. I think that's something that should be in job description. If you don't want honest people working in

speaker-0 (55:48)
Say there, pay there, save us both some time. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

speaker-1 (55:52)
You know, and and I think also I would want an organization as instructional designers, sometimes I feel like I'm wearing all the hats.

speaker-0 (56:02)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (56:04)
I don't think that's something I'm gonna do going forward is try to wear all the hats because sometimes I feel like people don't know where to go and then they just come into that instructional design space and it's like you're supposed to work it out. But

speaker-1 (56:17)
that is something that I would want from that organization. You know what I'm saying? The opportunity to grow and develop and be transparent and accountable. Yeah. But not me being the only accountable person, everybody being accountable for what their role is.

speaker-1 (56:31)
I wanna show up better than I have in the past. And I wanna show up you know, be in that goat, you know. I mean, you y I mean, you're not gonna ask Beyonce to compromise. You're not gonna ask, you know, the hockey teams, the football teams, you're not gonna ask them to compromise.

speaker-1 (56:51)
Yeah. I feel like my role is small as it is in this entire universe, the sa deserves that same authentic opportunity. And I think that there have been a lot of opportunities out there, but the main thing that I would say that I'm looking for is an opportunity to be set up for success. yeah.

speaker-0 (57:12)
Yeah, and I and I love that that's what you're looking for because so often, I mean, we all know people who just, work for a paycheck. Like none of us are volunteering, right?

speaker-0 (57:22)
But, to hear that you're like, nah, if I'm gonna get paid to do something, I want to be able to do it well. And I want to be set up for success,

speaker-0 (57:30)
to really do it well. And that's one of the things I admire about you is you have been someone that I've

speaker-0 (57:36)
been able to work with her. I'm like, they really love their job. Like they're not just showing up for the sake of, whenever we've been in meetings, you've been present. You, you were participative. Like you, you really would go out of your way to make sure if we're doing this thing, let's do this thing. And and that's so

speaker-0 (57:59)
appreciated, for someone like myself, you don't always get that in in partners. I love that that's that's what we're we're ending on. So this this is my my one more ask that I ask everybody to do at the at the end of each episode, which is if a recruiter, hiring manager, future colleague,

speaker-0 (58:20)
Somebody that wants to connect with you is is watching right now, Why should they want one more one on one with you?

speaker-1 (58:29)
I'm not looking simply for another job. Mm-hmm. I'm looking for a place where the way that I think can be useful.

speaker-1 (58:36)
Let me join in with other people dealing with complicated problems. Let me ask those questions. Let me work with people who understand and let me help create something that works.

speaker-0 (58:49)
Mm.

speaker-1 (58:51)
What I have inside of me I I consider a gift. I'm systematic, analytical, I'm logical and

speaker-1 (58:59)
how I want to show up every day, being able to provide that. Anybody can be a challenge, anybody can throw roadblocks into the day to day.

speaker-0 (59:10)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (59:11)
But if you have me and you have me working for you, let me show up in my EXCELLENCE Mm. Cause I'm gonna bring it every day. I've never not done it.

speaker-0 (59:22)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (59:24)
let me show up in my excellence. Let me bring that to the table.

speaker-1 (59:28)
Let that excellence that I bring be something that you're really looking for, that you see as value. Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (59:37)
let me show up in my excellence as a way to pay it forward to

speaker-1 (59:41)
to Mr. Trocy, you know, y you know,

speaker-0 (59:44)
Mr. Trosy.

speaker-1 (59:45)
okay, let me let me bring that excellence, you know, to all the other people that are struggling in math or struggling with their writing skills or struggling whatever. Let me bring that excellence, you know. Because that's what we want, that stellar organizational excellence. I remember listening to something one time, I think I may have read it, and it was about one particular company and

speaker-1 (01:00:09)
I had to read a couple of times because I was just like, wow, that's amazing. They were bringing in a hundred and fourteen billion. That's billion with a B every quarter based on their instructional design strategies and designs.

speaker-0 (01:00:25)
wow.

speaker-1 (01:00:26)
You get you know that says something when you have repeat customers. That says something when people want to come to you over and over again.

speaker-0 (01:00:37)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (01:00:38)
that

speaker-1 (01:00:39)
organizational excellence that not just I can have, but anybody I'm working with, anybody that wants to share. I am a believer in everybody, you know, from a leadership standpoint, everybody on my team or everybody that I'm working with, they should have some area of responsibility that is their own. So they can even grow in that.

speaker-0 (01:01:01)
Yeah, yeah.

speaker-1 (01:01:02)
But I want to I've I've if if if anybody is listening to this, whoever's heard of it, you know, think about that organizational excellence. And if you want that, hey, I'm I I'm your goat.

speaker-0 (01:01:13)
There

speaker-0 (01:01:14)
you go. Listen, I agree. And I think that's gonna be one of my clips is let me show up in my excellent.

speaker-1 (01:01:21)
I guess.

speaker-0 (01:01:22)
Man, what a soundbite. I love that. Because that's because that's so true. You know, people hire for skills, people hire for value, but then there are times where once you get into an organization, then that that is

speaker-0 (01:01:36)
diminished a little bit or it's not as valuable as you know it it it initially was and that's unfortunate for the organization when that happens. Sheila, I just want to thank you so much for sharing a little bit of your story with us today. And one of the goals and hopes that I have for one more one on one is to remind people

speaker-0 (01:01:59)
that behind every open to work banner is a real person with real potential, real possibilities and and real passion for what they do. And that you don't always see in in the resume. And so if today's conversation resonated with you, I encourage you to share this episode, connect with our guests.

speaker-0 (01:02:24)
I know you're on LinkedIn. let's create more opportunities. Let's let's get Sheila some some connections, let's get Sheila some visibility because as as a former coworker of hers, she is an amazing, amazing person to work with and to learn from.

speaker-0 (01:02:41)
I have been someone that has tremendously learned a lot from Sheila and that has not only helped me in my role that we work together with, but that's gonna be some of those lessons I'll take with me, to my next role and in the future. So again, one conversation sometimes really can change everything. I appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time on

speaker-0 (01:03:06)
One more one on one.